How can the pro-life message be effective in an increasingly polarized culture? How can the movement move from controversy to civility and still be a compelling message defending the unborn? Join us for our conversation with Stephanie Gray, a veteran of the pro-life movement who describes how to defend the unborn in today’s culture.



More About Our Guest

Portrait of Stephanie Gray

Stephanie Gray is a seasoned and international speaker who began presenting at the age of 18. She has given over 900 pro-life presentations across North America as well as in Scotland, England, Ireland, Austria, Latvia, Guatemala, and Costa Rica. She has spoken at many post-secondary institutions such as Yale University, George Washington University, and the University of California, Berkeley. In 2017, Stephanie was a presenter for the series "Talks at Google," speaking on abortion at Google headquarters in Mountain View, California. Stephanie is author of Love Unleashes Life: Abortion & the Art of Communicating Truth as well as A Physician’s Guide to Discussing Abortion. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from UBC in Vancouver, and a Certification, with Distinction, in Health Care Ethics, from the NCBC in Philadelphia.


Episode Transcript

Scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith & Culture. I'm your host, Scott Rae, Dean of Faculty and Professor of Christian Ethics at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University.

Sean McDowell: I'm your cohost Sean McDowell, Professor of Christian Apologetics at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University.

Scott Rae: We're here with our guests, Stephanie Gray, who is an international presenter, speaker, writer, author, spoken to audiences around the world for the past 20 years, formally debated abortion doctors, professors, countless one-on-one conversations about abortion at various pro-life exhibits around the country.

She is a well-known speaker, writer on the subject of abortion, advocating for the unborn around the world and has been for the last 20 years. She's well known by her organization, entitled Love Unleashes Life, which is the title of her book that we're also featuring today. Love Unleashes Life: Abortion and the Art of Communicating Truth. Stephanie, we're really glad to have you with us. Welcome. Thanks for being with us today.

Stephanie Gray: Thank you, Scott. It's great to be with you and Sean. It's a joy to reach your audience with the pro-life message.

Scott Rae: So you've been in the pro-life movement, out in front for a pretty long time. What first captured you about the pro-life movement, that made you want to do this full time with your life?

Stephanie Gray: Hmm. Well, I would say at a foundational level, the first thing would be my upbringing. Both of my parents were very involved in the pro-life movement. My mom volunteered at a pregnancy care center, and my mom and my dad were the types that wrote letters to the editor and went to conferences and marches and rallies.

When my mom counseled clients, I would often go to the pregnancy center with her and doodle on letterhead while she counseled girls. And then when they gave birth, I'd go to the hospital with her and I'd see the babies. So, that laid in my heart a deep passion for the pro-life cause for pre-born children. And I therefore always knew that pro-life advocacy would be a part of my life.

But then, the next significant turning point for me was when I was 18 years old, in my first year of college at the University of British Columbia here in Western Canada. And a friend of yours and mine, a mentor of mine now, Scott Klusendorf, a phenomenal pro-life speaker, came from the United States to Canada to speak at a conference for college students and I attended that conference.

Something Scott said that weekend stayed with me and that was, he quoted the following, "There are more people working full-time to kill babies than there are working full-time to save them."

Scott Rae: Wow.

Stephanie Gray: When I heard those words, it was like the Holy Spirit grabbed a hold of my heart. And it was as though God asked me, "Okay, Stephanie, will you be one of the people who works full-time to save babies?"

So I was like a little leech on Scott the whole weekend. Every meal, I always sat next to him and I kept asking him questions, and I think he could tell I was a keener. So, he began to mentor me from a distance, after the weekend, and would give me a little assignments to read pro-abortion essays and I would write a 500-word response, that he then marked for me.

Long story short, that led into speaking opportunities, which led to other opportunities, more formation from Scott, training in how to fundraise to do ministry full-time. And so here I am 20 years later now, still doing full-time pro-life work after having met Scott.

Sean McDowell: So you've been in this movement officially at least two decades.

Stephanie Gray: Yes.

Sean McDowell: How has your approach changed and what does this kind of tell us about how the pro-life movement and the issues surrounding the abortion debate have changed as well?

Stephanie Gray: In terms of how I have changed, I think the best way to answer that is how I often would answer the question students would ask of me. They would come up, some of them, and say, "I want to do full-time pro-life work as well. What should I study if I'm going to do that?" And in the early days, my answer was always history, English. You want to learn from the past. You want to be a good writer. Some philosophy, you want to know how to argue well.

Now, my answer is psychology. What I mean by that, is that I have moved from just the head, you could say, in terms of making an intellectual argument to reach people, to also the heart. Really realizing that a lot of people have a difficult time embracing the intellectual, rational, logical arguments that we can put forth, that are philosophically grounded and scientifically-based and rooted in human rights doctrines. They have a difficult time embracing that because there's often a psychological angle that we have yet to figure out.

Maybe they've had an abortion or one of their loved ones has had an abortion. Maybe they drove a friend to a clinic. Whatever the case may be, a personal involvement and emotional investment can often cause them to put up a wall and prevent the logic from getting through.

So as the years have gone on, I've come to see, yes, I still need to have a very strong mind. I need to be steeped in apologetics. But time and experience has taught me that I need to have the most tender of hearts, and I really need to seek to understand, where is this person coming from? What has their story been up until this point of meeting me? And only when I dive into that and begin to understand that, can I see more clearly as to what they best need from me in any particular encounter.

Scott Rae: Stephanie, let's be a little more specific and run with that for a moment. Tell us a story or two of some of the people you've encountered, where speaking to their heart has made a difference.

Stephanie Gray: Yeah. So I mean, the story that immediately comes to mind is a student that I met in Florida. We were debating personhood, which is very common with debating abortion supporters. They'll often argue, even if technically pre-born children are human beings at that level of science, they're of the species Homo sapiens, they will argue the pre-born human being is not a person. And really, they're making more philosophical argument than a scientific one.

So I was debating with a philosophy student who was making this very argument, arguing pre-born children aren't persons. Often, the rationale is because they're not rational or conscious or self-aware, particularly early in pregnancy.

I looked at him at one point in our conversation and I said, "In my world, you're safe. Because in my world, by virtue of being a member of the human family, you're automatically considered a person."

I said, "In your world, you could become a victim of your philosophy." I said, "In your world right now, you've picked a definition of person that includes yourself and excludes pre-born children. And you can do that because you're more powerful than them." But I said, "Your definition is arbitrary."

I said, "What if someone comes along in your world, who is more powerful than you, the way you're more powerful than pre-born children? And what if that person, in coming along, comes up with a definition of person that excludes you the way you've excluded pre-born children? And because they're more powerful than you, therefore you can become a victim of your philosophy." I said, "In my world, you're safe." And he looked at me with fire in his eyes and said, "In your world, I wouldn't exist."

I had no idea what he was talking about, but I have learned the power of asking questions. Greg Koukl speaks of this in his book, Tactics. And so I just looked at the student, I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "My mom had an abortion. She had an abortion shortly before she got pregnant with me. If she had never have had that abortion, she never would have conceived me."

In that moment my heart broke, because I thought, "Oh my gosh. This guy has come to the realization that his very existence on this earth is entirely dependent on the abortion of his sibling." That if that child had never been conceived, the one sex act where that one sperm and one egg in all of history, which would have made him, never would have occurred to result in him if there was already his sibling continuing on in the pregnancy in his mother's womb. And that is a painful reality to come to terms with.

In that moment, I realized I had been debating with him at a very intellectual level, but to me I realized that was a coping mechanism for him, that the real issue was a heart issue. He probably loves his mom, perhaps he always wished he had a sibling. And all of this realization of the consequences of the pro-life claim are profoundly personal for him.

So in that moment, I tried to change the direction of the conversation and so it was more heart rather than head. And I said, "How's your mom doing? Does she ever talk about the abortion?" I said, "Do you ever think about your sibling?" There was a resistance on his part to go there, but we still had a friendly rapport.

And then I had been participating, or was about to participate the following day, in a pro-life exhibit on his campus, and he came around. He kept talking to volunteers and clearly seeds were being sown. The Holy Spirit, I have to trust, will water those seeds and has watered those seeds in time.

But I would say that was a real eye-opening moment for me, of how you can engage someone intellectually, but then have this epiphany, "Oh my goodness. It's not at all about the mind. It's about the heart. And this is profoundly personal for him."

Sean McDowell: Stephanie, I got goosebumps when you were sharing that story because I did not anticipate that response from this person to you. It never would have crossed my mind.

Now to me, as an apologist, oftentimes I'm thinking, "What's the question behind the question?" So, when the problem of evil comes up, I'm thinking it's probably not just academic. And some fashion, maybe in the way you described in great fashion, somebody has personally experienced this hurt.

I'm assuming this is true in pro-life, but is this true more often than not? I suspect people are going to get involved in this on both sides of the issue, probably because of a personal experience in some factor? Is that right?

Stephanie Gray: Absolutely. And the more I've become aware of this, the more I have seen it be proven in my encounters, because I then use a whole different approach of questioning. And then it's made me realize, "Oh my goodness. All those years ago, in the early days, when I didn't have the wisdom or discernment to know, maybe I should go down a different path, there were missed opportunities." Of course, I did the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time, and it becomes a learning opportunity. But yes, absolutely.

I mean, another encounter I can think of, I was debating with a young man and I asked him what he thought about abortion. He said, "I just think it is wrong for anyone to oppress and dominate another." And he kept using the term dominate. So I was thinking, "Oh, well then, I can use that language to make him pro-life. Because isn't abortion about one person, the woman, dominating another, the pre-born child?" So, I tried that very logical argument and nothing was getting through to him.

And then at one point, as is very common when dialoguing about abortion, the topic of rape came up. So, I mentioned having several friends, actually, who tragically have been victims of sexual assaults, including child molestation. Some of them never got pregnant, some of them did. Some of them had abortions when they got pregnant, some of them didn't and carried to term.

So I shared some of this. And then as I made those more personal references, he said to me, "Yeah, I was sodomized as a child." And that was-

Sean McDowell: Oh my goodness.

Stephanie Gray: Yeah, that was 30 minutes into our conversation. And suddenly with that one revelation, it put the previous 30 minutes in context, particularly his use of the word domination.

And I thought, "Oh my goodness. This man doesn't want to dominate anyone. He wants to maintain a so-called pro-choice perspective because he's been a victim of domination. He has seen that type of vile brutality being inflicted on an innocent. And he's not perceiving the pre-born child as an innocent, he's perceiving the pregnant woman as an innocent. And therefore, thinking if any law or pro-life individual tries to say you can't have an abortion, that they're dominating over that woman the way someone once dominated over him."

I realized, in that moment, this is so personal for him, like it is for the other guy. And having been in front of a pro-life exhibit, presenting the pro-life message to him, having dialogued with him for 30 minutes on a very academic, intellectual level, I thought, "Lord, the best thing I can do right now is just meet him where he's at and be friendly in my conversation with him."

I tried to go more in the heart direction. It was clear he didn't want to share further about his story, other than what had happened. And so you can't force someone to go somewhere where they don't want to go. But then I just asked general things like, "Well, what are you studying and what do you want to do?" Just wanted to build a friendly rapport, because at the end of the day, people don't just remember what you say, they remember how you made them feel.

I wanted him to know that we could disagree on a moral issue, and yet I could treat him as a human person worthy of my respect. His poor views were not worthy of my respect on abortion, but he as a person is worthy of my respect in my engagement and just a friendly encounter. I wanted to leave that taste in his mouth.

Scott Rae: Stephanie, I saw your style and tone and the heart approach in your video, that I saw on YouTube when you were invited to speak at Google. I mean at first, when I first saw this, I thought, "I can't be reading this correctly. Because surely somebody was not invited to speak at Google on the subject of abortion." How did it come about that you got that invitation?

Stephanie Gray: Yeah.

Scott Rae: How did you approach that?

Stephanie Gray: Sure. Much prayer is how I approached it. And how I got in, truly, literally I feel was a miracle, and I'm not using that term loosely. I truly think it was a miracle.

So staff people at Google can, on their own initiative, throw speaker names into the ring. Talks at Google is a series that the organization hosts for its staff. Most of them are recorded and then put on Google's YouTube channel. They're kind of like TED Talks, but through Google. So, any staff member can suggest to the organization a speaker.

So there was a staff member, or is a staff member at Google familiar with my work, who reached out to me and said, "Hey, I would love to suggest you as a presenter. Would you be interested?" I said, "Well, of course I'd be interested, but what are the odds?" What are the odds this is going to happen? But I said, "Let's go for it."

So the next step, once he found out I was interested, was there had to be a proposal submitted. So I really prayed about that. Like, "Lord, what is the language that I should present when making this pitch?"

If you go to the Talk at Google and read the little description, that's part of the pitch that I ended up putting forward. But one of my taglines was, "The abortion debate can be so heated because it's about pro-choice versus pro-life, but this presentation is going to be pro-conversation."

I thought, "I think they might like that language." And then I talked about how I would be drawing on human rights philosophies and doctrines, and looking at the insights of Holocaust survivor and psychiatrist, Dr. Viktor Frankl, sharing my personal stories of interacting with people of all different viewpoints on this topic. And miraculously, they said yes.

So then the date was set, and lots more prayer went into, "Okay, Lord, what do you actually want me to say?"

I had been steeped in prayer and reflection and really felt the Lord's inspiration, had my talk all ready. And the night before, maybe 14, 15, 16 hours before I was to be on-site, I suddenly thought, "Oh my gosh. I don't think I should do what I'm planning. It doesn't seem right, but I don't know what else to say."

So I was fulfilled with distress and anxiety and doubt and worry, and I was ready to redo whole thing. And I texted my ever-available, all-wise, beautiful, wonderful, saintly sister who's a breastfeeding mother and can therefore be guaranteed to be up anytime of the night.

I was in California and she was home in Vancouver, and I messaged her. I said, "I don't know what to do. I'm feeling like what I have planned is all wrong, but I don't know what to say." She texted me back. This is exactly what she said. She said, "Tell Satan to go to hell." And then she said-

Sean McDowell: That's awesome.

Stephanie Gray: She said, "Roll over and go to sleep. And when you wake up, give the talk that you prayerfully planned to give."

Scott Rae: Wow.

Sean McDowell: Good for her. That's good advice.

Stephanie Gray: So I did. Yeah, it was great advice, and that's what I presented. I truly felt, not only the presence of the Holy Spirit on the whole experience, but that really I summarized everything by saying, "I believe God blinded the people at Google who needed to be blinded and gave sight to the people who needed sight." And that is my answer for how I got in.

Scott Rae: I've got to say that your approach there, it was a masterful hour that you gave. I'm serious because it was just terrific. I encourage all of our listeners to look that up. It's on your site, the Love Unleashes Life site. And it's one of the first things that you can connect with once you get onto that site.

Sean McDowell: Stephanie, you and I know that arguments don't have genders, but we also know, that as a woman, you do bring a unique perspective and experience to this. So I'm curious how you think being a woman shapes the way you think and approach this topic. And for lack of a better term, maybe capitalize being a woman to speak into this subject?

Stephanie Gray: Well, good question. One of the previous Roman Catholic popes, John Paul II, spoke about the feminine genius. I feel like that little phrase kind of captures what I believe women can and do offer to the abortion debate.

What is femininity? First of all, we are receptive. We receive new life. We are nurturers. We carry that new life in our womb. Then, we bring forth that new life in pain and suffering. And that continues on, with that mother who gets up in the middle of the night.

That very nature, I think, allows us to sympathize well with another, to feel things very deeply. And all of that is the genius that comes to light when we're interacting with others. We may be more perceptive in feeling their pain, in sensing, "Oh, maybe things aren't as they appear on the surface. Maybe I need to dig a little deeper. Maybe I do need to abandon for a moment, not overall, but for a moment, the path I was on, that more intellectual path. Because I'm sensing the best way to nurture this person is to just sit with them in their story and in their pain."

It's not that men cannot do that, but that is something that I think is so in the nature of a woman, even biologically at a physiological level, and that can be manifested in other ways, in terms of how we interact and perceive other people and where they're at.

Scott Rae: Stephanie, your book, Love Unleashes Life, I love the subtitle on this, is so helpful I think. Abortion and the Art of Communicating Truth, it just has so many insightful parts to it. I could make a list, and we'd go on for some time, just with the insightful single sentence or two things that you mentioned. But let me take a couple of examples and have you spell these out.

You make the point that a woman's womb is different than any other part of her body. What is that difference and what difference does that make in the abortion discussion?

Stephanie Gray: Yes, great question. Well, that came to me in another God, Holy spirit moment. I was debating a philosophy professor who was arguing that, even if pre-born children are human beings who are persons who have a right to life, that abortion is justified on the basis that living human persons with the right to life do not have a right to use another living human person's body without their consent.

He made an analogy to a parent who has a born child, who will die because of kidney disease and therefore needs a kidney transplant. And he said, "It's nice of a parent to donate one of their kidneys to their born child, and it would save their child and it wouldn't even kill the parent to do this. But there's no duty, moral or legal, for a parent to do that."

"And therefore, just as there should be no, especially legal duty," he argued, "for a parent to give their born child their kidney, there should be no legal duty for a parent to give a pre-born child their uterus, even if the embryo and fetus are living human persons with a right to life."

I remember hearing that, thinking, "Oh my goodness, I don't know what to say because it's true. Parents don't have a duty to give their born kids their kidneys. So, why should a parent have to give their pre-born kid their uterus?"

So I'm in front of 200 people and I have an acting background, so I'm acting calm, cool, and collected. I am fake writing on my notes, to make it look like I'm writing this epic response, but was completely paralyzed inside.

So I began to pray and I was like, "Holy Spirit, help me. I do not know what to say." And I actually experienced God speak to me, not in audible forum, but I sensed that he said a very specific statement to me. And what I sensed him say was this. First of all, he called me by name, which was kind of cool. And he said, "Stephanie, I made the uterus for a different purpose." That's all God gave me. So, I remember sitting there thinking, "Okay, great, great."

Sean McDowell: So after that, you're on your own.

Stephanie Gray: Exactly. He likes to do that. So I kept thinking and praying over that one line, and then time was up and it was my turn. And in that very moment, the light bulb went off.

So, I got up in front of these students and professor and I said, "Professor Snedden makes a very compelling argument." I said, "Until we ask ourselves a question." I said, "The question we have to ask ourselves is this, what is the nature and purpose of the kidney versus the nature and purpose of the uterus?" Because I said, "When we answer that question, we come to see why a parent should not be legally obligated to give one, but should be legally obligated to give another."

And then I said, "The kidneys exist in my body for my body." But I said, "The uterus is very different." I said, "It's an organ unique from all the others, in that it exists more for my offspring than for me." I said, "My uterus is getting ready every single month for someone else's body. The uterine lining is, by nature, thickening and growing, not for me but for my children. And therefore, because by nature it exists more for my offspring than for me, they can claim a right to that organ in a way they can't claim a right to the others."

It was reported to me a couple of days later that the professor told his class, so this was heard through the grapevine, the next morning, that he was up all night trying to think of a response. I like to say, "Well, that is the power of prayer."

Scott Rae: Wow. That's quite a story. Let me give you another one, where I was just blown away by how insightful your response was. You have a great response to this scenario of a very poor prenatal diagnosis and a woman's decision to end a pregnancy on account of that.

Stephanie Gray: Right. Right. Yeah.

Scott Rae: Tell us about that.

Stephanie Gray: Yeah. That was a question that was also very personal to someone. I was at a college campus in Florida, at a pro-life exhibit and I was doing what is called open microphone, where any student walking past can come up to their microphone. I've got a microphone. It's like an outdoor classroom and they can ask anything.

So the student gets to the microphone. He says, "My stepmom had an abortion because she was told that her baby was going to die at birth. Are you telling me she was wrong?"

Now of course, having made it profoundly personal, the first thing I did was express sympathy and I said, "I am sorry for the suffering that your stepmom found herself in and I don't pretend to know that particular type of suffering. I don't pretend to know how difficult that must have been for her." And I said, "What makes me sad for people like your step mom is that, all too often, there are some in the medical community who will lead people like her to believe that abortion is the answer."

So I said to him, "Your question is fair. I promise I'll answer it, but I think I can best answer it if I ask you some questions, engage you in a dialogue." And so I sought his permission to do that because we had a crowd. I said, "Could we go back and forth a bit on this issue?" And he said, "Sure."

I said, "Okay." I said, "Imagine this. I'm going to get back to your question, but if you can enter into a little thought experiment with me ..." I said, "Imagine this." I said, "Imagine that you have a loved one who lives on the opposite end of the country, calls you today and says, 'I have just been diagnosed with cancer and I've been given four weeks left to live.'"

So I said to him, "Would you wait until the third week and the sixth day to hop on a plane and go say goodbye to this person that you love?" I said, "Or would you take the next flight out and savor every moment of every day of the next four weeks with this person that you love?" And he said, "Well, the second option." And so then I found common ground. I said, "Me too. I would choose the same." And I said, "Here's what I think this says about you and me," and then I used the story to extrapolate the principle.

I said, "What I think this says about us is, we recognize when we have a minimal amount of time left with someone we love, we want to maximize it. We don't want to cut short the already short time we have left."

So then I said to him, "Now, let's take that principle that we hold, both of us, and let's apply it to the circumstance your stepmom found herself in." I said, "Before she was told that her baby had a poor prenatal diagnosis, before she was told her child was going to die at birth, she probably thought she had maybe 50 years on this earth with her child."

I said, "In that moment ..." And usually you get that news about halfway through the pregnancy, maybe 20 weeks. I said, "In that moment, where she was told her baby would die at birth, she went from having 50 years to only 20 weeks left."

Now I said, "Based on your answer in the thought experiment, why would we cut short the already short time we have left and have an abortion? Wouldn't we want to savor every moment of every day of the next 20 weeks with a child that we love?"

And then I said to him, "Now, a lot of people think, 'Well, I wouldn't want to do that because in 20 weeks time, when the baby dies, I will grieve and I'll be sad. I'll be sorrowful. The first Christmas will come along. I'll miss the child. The following year will arrive and there will be that birthday and it'll be a death day and I'll be sad.'"

And I said, "That will happen." But I said, "Remember, this was a wanted pregnancy. So if the woman has an abortion, when that abortion happens, will she grieve? Yes. And when the first Christmas comes along, will she be sad because the child isn't there? Yes. And when a whole year passes and the abortion day is remembered, will there be sorrow? Yes. So having the abortion doesn't take away the sorrow, the grief and the sadness. Having the abortion takes away the gift of time."

Scott Rae: Stephanie, let me ask you one last question. There's so much more that we can talk about, and I suspect we'll want to have part two on this, at some point in the future.

Sean McDowell: Definitely.

Scott Rae: But tell me ... You've been at this for a while ... what are the things that give you the most hope, the things that you are the most encouraged about in the state of the pro-life discussion? Maybe both in the US and in Canada.

Stephanie Gray: Sure. I would say overall, there isn't much difference. Even though we're separated by a border, the arguments are the same, the problem is the same. And even I would say the percentages are the same, even if the numbers aren't because of population size.

So I would say in either place, what gives me hope on a very specific level, is literally seeing lives saved as a result of the pro-life message being proclaimed. People who thought abortion was acceptable, suddenly embracing a pro-life perspective. And also seeing that even if ...

Actually, to give you an example, I remember doing a debate many years ago. I was scheduled to speak on a college campus here in Vancouver. The morning of the debate, friends of mine went into labor with their second child, and they had actually invited me previously to that labor because they had known it was a dream of mine to see a birth.

So, I was both excited and disappointed that morning because when they called me to say, "Hey, we're in labor, come to the hospital," I had to decline because I was scheduled to do a debate on campus. And so I was so frustrated I was going to miss the birth.

But I went and did the debate. And I found out a while later, that there was a pregnant student who attended the debate, who was going to have an abortion, and as a result of the debate, decided to carry to term and gave birth a few months later. So I like to say, "Well, I didn't get to see a birth then, but at least a baby got to be born."

So certainly, that is the most obvious answer for what gives me hope, but just seeing information change people's lives, even if there isn't a physical life on the line.

I just gave a talk actually, on the other end of life, on assisted suicide. And a student spoke to me afterwards, having recently lost her grandma, and that has just emailed me and said, "You probably didn't realize it, but it was like your presentation was personally tailored to me. The stories that you were sharing, the way that they were communicated just hit my heart in that moment with what I needed."

So just to know, that by allowing myself to be an instrument for the Holy Spirit, that literally there is the capacity to make people's lives better and help build Christ's Kingdom on earth, is what gives me the most hope.

Scott Rae: Well hear, hear. Stephanie, thank you. This has been just incredibly insightful. I hope our listeners have appreciated just the ... not only your experience, but your heart. I mean, you've got a great mind, but you've also got a big heart, which is very encouraging to see as a part of this discussion.

So I want to commend to our listeners your book, Love Unleashes Life: Abortion and the Art of Communicating Truth, and your website under that same title, Love Unleashes Life. Lots of great resources there. I really encourage our listeners to take a listen to the session you did at Google. That was just off the charts. It was so good.

So just so appreciative of your work. It sounds like you're doing this sort of one person, one audience, one debate at a time. Sean and I both appreciate your faithfulness to this and your continued advocacy for the pre-born.

Stephanie Gray: Well, thank you and God bless you both and your ministry.

Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith & Culture. To learn more about us and today's guest, Stephanie Gray, and to find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically. That's biola.edu/thinkbiblically.

If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app and please do share it with a friend. Thanks so much for listening and remember, think biblically about everything.