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Radio host and pastor Bob Lepine is back on the podcast to speak with Tim and Rick about notable changes in our cultural communication since late 1970’s, including changes in our cultural tone. They discuss the loss of common ground, the dangers of one-sided winsomeness, how to engage fellow Christians with whom we disagree, and a significant communication pattern with Jesus and the Apostle Paul in the way they communicated with others, including their criticisms of others.


Transcript

Rick Langer: Welcome to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name's Rick Langer. I'm a professor at Biola University in the Biblical Studies and Theology Department, also the director of the Office of Faith and Learning and co-director of the Winsome Conviction Project with my good friend, Timothy Muehlhoff.

Tim Muehlhoff: Rick, it is very humbling to lead this Winsome Conviction Project. We're now going into our ... We're approaching our fifth year of doing this.

Rick Langer: Yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff: And the great thing about being at a university is people's opinions that we can go to that we deeply respect, but we're not limited just to Biola University. There are people that's on our radar, that we deeply respect their view of communication and even the cultural times that we live in. Bob Lepine is one of those individuals that I've known for over 30 years. He was the co-host of FamilyLife Today with Dennis Rainey forever. He was on the FamilyLife speaker team.

He's currently a teaching pastor at Redeemer Community Church in Little Rock, Arkansas. He serves on the Board of Directors of the Great Commission Collective. He's an author. He has produced films that have won awards at film festivals. He's deeply thoughtful person.

You may want to go back to our archives, a fascinating conversation about whether to attend a gay wedding or to attend a wedding of a person who's trans. A very thoughtful conversation. So we thought, "Let's ask him the big questions about this crazy communication context that we find today, what Deborah Tannen called the argument culture. And so, Bob, welcome back to the Winsome Conviction Podcast.

Bob Lepine: Great to be with you guys.

Tim Muehlhoff: And we really do mean that, Bob. We feel that unless we had access to perspectives, that we really would flounder here at the Winsome Conviction Project. So we want to ask you some broad questions today and get your observations of the communication climate that we find ourselves in. So here's the first one. In five words or less, how would you fix American politics?

Go. Go. No. You've been in ministry for how long?

Bob Lepine: Well, let's see. I started in Christian radio back in 1979, and then I've been an active churchman throughout my life since I came to faith.

Tim Muehlhoff: If somebody went back in a time machine and went back to, let's say 1979, and not to say that 1979 was this some kind of idyllic period, but as you've done a lifetime of ministry, what has changed in how we relate to each other and our communication if we were to go to 1979 and work our way to the present?

Bob Lepine: Well, it's interesting, and I think our ministry approach has been shaped by the larger culture, and because I'm involved in media and have been involved in media throughout my ministry career, I've paid attention to how media trends have helped to shape ministry trends. And I remember the first time ... I lived out in Sacramento in the 1980's, and there was a local radio host in Sacramento who, he would open his show at 10:00 in the morning, and then he would talk for the next 20 minutes, and I kept waiting, "When are you going to introduce the guest or invite phone calls?" He was just monologuing, and just going on and ranting. He was very entertaining and compelling. You wanted to listen to him, but it was a one-man show. Well, that radio host later got a national platform, and that was Rush Limbaugh.

Tim Muehlhoff: Oh.

Bob Lepine: And so I heard him as a local radio host.

Rick Langer: I've heard of him.

Tim Muehlhoff: You've heard of him?

Bob Lepine: And then in the late '80s, I heard him on his national program when he was doing ... He'd do feminist updates and animal rights updates, and you'd hear gunshots going off as Born Free was singing. It was very entertaining. And as a student of communication, I was very fascinated by how he was engaging with the audience, how he was using humor to make his point, but I began to notice in the '90s that he shifted from humor to ranting, and arguing, and passion, and I started to think, "Even if I agreed with what he was saying, he was setting up a real clear dividing line." He was drawing the line in the sand, and if you're not with me, you're against me, and there's no meeting point in the middle.

I think he pioneered a culture that then led to Fox News versus MSNBC, and to there being a level of civil discourse where we can't find ... To try to find common ground is to become woke. It's to become ... You're cavorting with the enemy if you do that, and now, you have to be ideologically pure, and I think that has found its way into how we understand our theological convictions and how everything becomes at the level of conviction. Nothing can be an opinion anymore, it has to be a conviction.

Nothing can be a preference, you have to see this, all of a sudden, it's life or death, and can't you see what time it is and where the culture's going, and if we don't stand for this, we're going to lose everything, and it's apocalyptic. And I think that has found its way into how some pastors treat the word, how they take an interpretive issue and they say, "It's not just, there are three or four ways to look at this. I think the weight is here," but instead, they say, "There's only one right way to interpret this, and it's my way, and the other people are theologically suspect, and maybe you shouldn't be listening to them." And that gets very dangerous very quickly, but I think it shaped where we are today.

Rick Langer: Let me just pick up on one thing you mentioned about kind of in the arc that you saw Rush Limbaugh work through the vanishing of kind of common ground. It strikes me there's kind of three different descriptions of ground that are sort of interesting when we think about the way we communicate issues. So you can think of a battleground where you're fighting, and then the other thing I think we have an imagination for still in our day is what you might call the DMZ, which is where you say, "Okay, I'm just not going to talk with my Uncle Henry about politics when we get together for Thanksgiving or whatever the issue is."

Bob Lepine: Thanksgiving. Right.

Rick Langer: And so you know it will be a battleground. The way to keep it from turning into battle is to say, "Okay, we're going to demilitarize this place by silence." The thing that is not in that is exactly common ground, because it seems like common ground is something you might cultivate, a place you might live. I think of the image of community gardens that you find in some urban areas and things like that, where everybody gets to cultivate the land, because otherwise no one would have this land, but because you hold it in common, anyone in the neighborhood can come and use it. And I feel like we haven't just lost common ground, we've lost a vision that common ground is a thing.

Tim Muehlhoff: Or useful.

Rick Langer: Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Lepine: Well, and I can respond to that. I don't know if there's a specific question that you want me to try to tackle.

Rick Langer: No. It was more of an observation. I'd love to hear your thoughts about that.

Tim Muehlhoff: Because there is no ... Let me just say this real quick, Rick. There is no common garden anymore. That's what we're finding, is we went to Capitol Hill, Bob. We were invited by Cru, Christian Embassy, and a group called Faith & Law.

And honestly, Bob, we got our behinds battered. We had all these great quotes from G. K. Chesterton. We were ready to go, about going to the pub afterwards, after he had these debates with Rudyard Kipling and Bernard Shaw, and one leading person said to us, "Have dinner together." We don't even share the same elevator. And so this idea of a common garden is so beautiful, but people are like, "We have our own gardens. We're not having a common garden."

So can you address this common ground? What if people are listening, saying, "What's the point?" We know they're wrong, and so what's the point of trying to somehow cultivate this common ground?

Bob Lepine: Well, it's interesting that we're talking about winsomeness in an era where that term has become a code for capitulation.

Rick Langer: Yes.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Lepine: That to become winsome is to capitulate, and we can't give. Because of the polarization that's taking place in the culture, the thought is we can't give an inch to the enemy. If you give an inch to the enemy, to your ideological opponent, you're giving up ground that he would not give to you. I think we have to acknowledge that if it's a one-sided winsomeness, there's a danger there. If we're the ones who are always inviting you to sit at the table, but the other side is not playing with the same perspective on things, I think we have to recognize we may be being played in that situation.

So it takes some shrewdness. Jesus is the one who said that the sons of the culture know how to deal more shrewdly than we do. We have to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, but we also ... I'll tell you the passage as a pastor I keep coming back to, is a passage in 2 Timothy 2, where Paul is writing to Timothy, and he says that, "You have nothing to do with foolish quarrels," so I think we have to pull back and go, "Okay, is this just a foolish quarrel, or is this an openness debate? Are we really sharpening iron with one another, listening to one another, as well as responding, or are we just drawing our swords and having a sword fight here?"

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah.

Bob Lepine: So the Lord's servant is not to be drawn into those, but He is to treat everyone with kindness. There's supposed to be humility involved. It even goes on to say patiently enduring evil. And as a pastor, I've gone, "Really, Lord, I'm supposed to patiently endure evil?" Here's what I have said. If you're engaging with people in dialogue and the fruit of the spirit is not present in that dialogue, then it's not dialogue that's honoring to God.

Rick Langer: Yeah.

Bob Lepine: We have to know how to contend for the faith without being overly contentious, and that contending without being contentious is, it takes wisdom and it takes grace, but I think the fruit of the Spirit has got to be at the center of all of this, and if it's not, then I think we have to pull back and say, "The Lord's not in this if we've risen to the point where we cannot be patient with one another, kind toward one another, gentle toward one another." These are spirit-filled attributes that should be true of every follower of Christ.

Rick Langer: Yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff: So Bob, let me ask you about a talk you and I have given 50 million times at a FamilyLife marriage conference. Remember the blessing talk?

Bob Lepine: Sure.

Tim Muehlhoff: 2 Peter 3:9, "When insulted, I want you to bless." What do you think he meant by that? And is that even remotely possible in today's argument culture?

Bob Lepine: Yeah. Well, what I think he meant by that is when insulted, bless. I think that's what he meant.

Rick Langer: Wait, wait, wait. Let me write that down. That-

Tim Muehlhoff: I need to write that down.

Rick Langer: Yeah, get-

Tim Muehlhoff: Hang on.

Rick Langer: [inaudible 00:12:19].

Tim Muehlhoff: Can you repeat that real quick? Okay, but ... Okay.

Rick Langer: No, no, no. I want ... Run with that, Bob.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. But what is bless in that- Yeah.

Bob Lepine: So let's back up, because he starts that passage by saying that, "With everyone, we're supposed to be brotherly, kindhearted." There are these character qualities. We're supposed to have this fruit of the Spirit kind of. There's sympathy and there's humility, and all of that's mixed in, but then, it goes on to say, "Yes, when insulted do not ..." This is how Jesus was when He was being insulted.

Takes us back to what we find in 1 Peter 2, "When he was reviled, he did not revile in return, but kept entrusting himself to the one who judges justly," and so I think, yes, when we're in a situation with someone, who is insulting us, then I think we have to, in that situation, be asking ourselves, "How can I not get drawn into this discourse in the way you're doing it? You're trying to turn me into your fellow insulter, but how can I, in that situation ..." I'll tell you the best example I've seen of this. When Tim Keller wrote the book, The Reason for God, the folks at Google invited Tim to come speak to their staff. They used to have a thing called Authors at Google. Now, imagine this. This is Google.

Tim Muehlhoff: Wow, yeah.

Bob Lepine: And they invite Tim Keller to come speak at their Authors at Google platform. And it wasn't to the whole staff, it was an auditorium where staff got the time off that they wanted to come do this, and Tim made about a 25, 30-minute presentation. This is online. You can find this. And I watched his presentation, and it was great.

And as soon as he said, "Okay, let's take some questions," right to the microphone come the Google guys, and they come ready to argue scientifically about why his views about the existence of God just don't make any sense. And this one guy gets up and says, "Well, what about this and that?" And this guy was, he was not insulting, but it was clear he wanted to take on Tim and take down Tim publicly, to just show that this pastor didn't know what he was talking about, and so he asked the question. Tim listened carefully to the question. He didn't try to interrupt, he didn't try to take him down.

He listened. I think that's part of how you bless somebody, is by listening to them. Make sure that you've heard what they've said, and then, the next thing Tim said, he said, "You raise what are some really significant issues, and in fact, a couple of these things are some of the hardest things to have to wrestle with, and you brought them right to the surface, and I appreciate that." And then I thought, "Wow." I mean, here he is.

This guy came up ready to take down Tim Keller, and Tim Keller commends him for the argumentation, and then Tim goes into his ... I think the way I'd respond to that is this, this, and this, and the guy kind of went away. I think the guy went away shocked by Tim's gentleness in his response, rather than ... Whatever the answer was, I think the guy went away going, "That's not what I expected. I expected this guy to draw his sword and that we'd be dueling for the next 10 minutes."

Tim Muehlhoff: MMA. So, Bob, we're huge fans of everything that you're saying. I mean, you're really speaking the language of Winsome Conviction, but we'd love counsel on the number one objection we get, right out of the gates. People who agree that winsomeness, they want to say it's woke. It's not standing up for the Christian faith.

Here we go, Jesus overturning tables, Paul going after the Judaizers, calling them dogs, mocking their view on circumcision, and things like that. And speak slowly, because Rick and I are going to write down every word of your answer, and it will be on the website, winsomeconviction.com by this afternoon. So what do you say to the ... Listen, Jesus is ... Because when we went to Capitol Hill, Bob, everybody we talked to were self-professed Christians, and every one of them brought up Jesus.

I am not exaggerating. Every one brought up Jesus overturning tables because the house is on fire. There's not time to bless, and had that be a response to an insult. So what's your response to the Jesus overturning tables?

Bob Lepine: So here, I'll quote Steve Brown, who's a pastor in Florida, who is somebody I've listened to for years, and I remember a message he gave at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention many years ago, and he said something that just hit me right between the eyes. He was talking about Jesus overturning the money changers' tables, and he said, "What did He do the day before He did that?" As He was entering into Jerusalem, the triumphal entry, He lifted up His eyes, He looked at Jerusalem, and He wept. And He wept and said, "Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I have longed to bring you in as a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not have it." And Steve Brown said, "Those of us who are ready to go overturn the money changers' tables, I wonder if we've wept yet."

And, I mean, that was convicting for me, because it's so easy for me to want to take down the blasphemy. I mean, there's blasphemy going on in our culture, and it's easy for me to want to stand righteously in the face of blasphemy and say, "Thus saith the Lord," but have I wept for those who are ensnared in sin? Have I wept for those who are deceived, who are under the domination of the world and the devil, or do I just want to ... Am I scared? Am I responding the way I'm responding because I'm frightened that maybe life is going to be harder for me if they win or ...

I'm saddened about the direction our culture is going, and I'm saddened as I think about my kids and my grandkids, and what it's like to be a prophetic minority rather than a moral majority if we ever were a moral majority, but I also trust that more Christians have lived in that environment throughout the centuries than have lived in what we've enjoyed in America for the last many years, and I think we have to be ready to know how to engage with the culture from the perspective of being the minority. The other thing I would say is Jesus' harshest and sharpest words in the Bible are always directed at the religious Pharisees. They're not directed at the ... You don't hear Jesus taking on Pilate. You don't see Jesus ...

He's respectful before Pilate, much more respectful before Pilate than He was before the chief priests, but when He talks about a brood of vipers and when He calls people whitewashed tombs, He's not talking about sinners. Well, He is talking about sinners. He's talking about the self-righteous sinners. He's talking about the religious establishment, not about the tax collectors and the prostitutes. So I think we have to recognize if you want to be like Jesus and you want to demonstrate appropriate righteous indignation, turn your attention toward the hypocrisy you see in the House of God, not toward what you see in the culture. The way of Jesus was a different approach to the sinful culture around Him than it was to the religious establishment.

Tim Muehlhoff: Let me, just a little bit of a pushback on that real quick, but I literally, Bob, I literally wrote down what you said about what did he do the day before He overturned tables? He wept. Paul gives us a version of that in Romans 9, probably one of the greatest Arminian chapters in the entire New Testament. Paul says, "I have unceasing grief and sorrow towards my Jewish brethren, and I would give up my salvation for them." So that's kind of Paul's version of Jesus weeping in front of Jerusalem.

But let me say this, because I totally agree that His harshest criticism was for the religious establishment, but the way that gets translated, Bob, with our work with churches is, "Okay, so I am compassionate towards non-Christian liberals, but I'm going after the Christians, the religious establishment, and I'm calling them a brood of vipers because they should know better. They're the modern Judaizers, and I'm taking the gloves off to fellow Christians that I disagree with, and I'm calling them in sin publicly and going after them because they're the equivalent of their religious establishment, and they should know better."

Bob Lepine: Well, so I'd first say yes, we do need, and there are times we need to call out people publicly. I mean, I just taught through the book of Jude, and the book of Jude is about false teachers, and we spent 14 weeks going through Jude.

Tim Muehlhoff: Wow.

Bob Lepine: I mean, we did a deep dive in this. And in the context of that, there were public Christian pastors and leaders, who I said, "It brings me no pleasure to have to say this, but this is a person who is identifying himself as a false teacher." I don't know about the state of his soul. I'm going to be very careful before I pronounce that somebody is not a Christian, because God didn't put me in charge of that. But I will say what I see gives me concern about the state of his soul and makes me wonder about what's going on here, and I'm concerned that this person is showing evidence of being a false teacher in what he is telling God's people.

I think I want to do that with an appropriate sobriety, because listen, you are standing in the place of God as a prophet, and as a pastor, I'm saying, "This is what the Lord would say, I believe, if He was here saying these things." I should be sobered by that and not be quick to do this. And I would say a lot of those who are saying, "I'm taking on my fellow Christians and calling them this and that," and I would say, "Beware of the sin of self-righteousness, which is the sin that you may be most likely to fall prey to. Just be on guard against that sin of self-righteousness and make sure that what you are certain about is clear in scripture and not just a scriptural view that you've amended to fit your own preferences.

Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. So can I ask you this question? Boy, I feel like this is a cathartic moment for us.

Rick Langer: Yeah, I'm watching Tim's therapy session over here, so you're doing great, Bob, just so you know.

Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. So we are huge fans of Preston Sprinkle. We've had them on the podcast, the most listened to podcast we've ever done until this one. I'm sure, Bob, you'll crush them, but he has come out and said, I think in certain situations, I use preferred pronouns, in talking to people from the LGBTQ community, Rosaria Butterfield, who we have mad respect for, has come out and publicly said he's in sin and has called out Cru in a commencement, very much called out and-

Bob Lepine: Convocation, yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, convocation.

Bob Lepine: Convocation at Liberty, yup.

Tim Muehlhoff: So fair, fowl, too much? You laid a nice groundwork there of self-righteousness, which I think very good checklist, but do you think ... And feel free to pass if this is ... I mean, but she's made it public, so I do feel like-

Rick Langer: She has.

Tim Muehlhoff: In some ways, I feel like it's fair to talk about it.

Bob Lepine: So I do a podcast for the Great Commission Collective called The Bounce, and Rosaria was a recent guest on The Bounce, and we talked about her book, and she made the same pronouncement to me regarding Preston, and I said, "Oh, you're naming names," and she said, "I'm an English professor. I cite my sources." And it was a clever response. I'm going to leave it between Rosaria and the Lord in terms of how you take somebody on. I mean, just to be candid, in teaching on Jude, I brought up Andy Stanley and identified Andy Stanley as somebody who I believe has become a false teacher.

Now, I didn't call Andy ahead of time. I'm saying it here on this podcast, and I'm pointing to the reasons why, and it brings me no pleasure to say that, because I think Andy has done things that have been helpful and beneficial, but I think he's left the scriptures on some key issues. And so I think we have to be very sobered, not anxious to do that. If you're anxious to go describe somebody as a false teacher, then you need to pull back. With regard to Preston and preferred pronouns and something, I would not approach it.

I might be troubled by some of what I ... I am troubled by some of what I hear Preston suggesting. I would disagree with him on some things. I would approach it differently in how I would interact. First, I would try to interact with him, and in the absence of interacting with him, if I was dealing with it publicly, which apparently I am doing right now, right?

Rick Langer: Just so you know, we do have listeners.

Bob Lepine: I would say my concern with what I've seen with Preston is that I think sometimes he gives what I think is an uncertain sound on some of these issues, where I'll hear him describe an allegiance to biblical orthodoxy, and then I'll hear something else that I go, "That doesn't seem to match up with what you were saying over here, and it leaves me more confused than clarified," and that would be my critique of him, but honestly, I'd want to sit down and have the conversation with him before I was up saying, "I think he's a heretic." I would say I have enough data with Andy Stanley to be able to make a judgment like that, but I don't think I have that kind of data with Preston Sprinkle, although there are things I see that are concerning and troubling to me.

Rick Langer: Yeah. Well, this has been terrific, and we're so grateful for you joining with us, Bob. These are hard issues, and I think one of the advantages of just taking the time to talk them through is not just learning from one another, but hopefully stimulating the imagination of all those who are listening as well to say, "Hey, these are the kinds of issues that I'm confronted with on a daily basis, and I need to not just always go with the immediate first thought that I have, but to stop and think through some of these things carefully." So we really appreciate you kind of giving us a model for doing that and some of the perspectives that you've had.

Bob Lepine: Well, and let me just jump in and add one more thing just as we're wrapping up, and that is this, to talk about winsome engagement will not get you clicks, will not get you a huge audience. The reason that we started this by talking about the general tone of communication in our culture, and whether it's Rush Limbaugh, or Fox News, or MSNBC, or Twitter, or whatever else, if you want to amass an audience, if you want to build a brand, you say outrageous things, and you say them without concern. You don't try to moderate your tone. You don't try to be winsome in what you're doing. No, you let her rip, because that's how you're going to go viral. And I think we have sacrificed healthy biblical engagement for personal brand building, and I think we've got to be on guard against that.

Rick Langer: Amen.

Bob Lepine: And I may get canceled from everything I've said here on your program, Tim.

Tim Muehlhoff: Well, we have a-

Rick Langer: You won't get canceled by us-

Tim Muehlhoff: And we have empirical evidence about not getting a lot of clicks for Winsome, and so if you need the data, we can send ... No, we have a great following, but no, you're right. Bob, you're 100% right. And it gets linked to wokeness. It's like the shift rhetorical move that we're woke because we're winsome.

Rick Langer: And soft-headedness. That's one of the things that bothers me, is it's like the patience to sit there and listen to another viewpoint, to me, is I'm like, "Well, wait a minute. How in the world can that possibly be soft-headed?" I mean, the point is to say-

Bob Lepine: But guys, I do think we've got to recognize, and you'll hear that, you've heard this argument, if your child is standing in the street and about to be hit by a car, you don't sit on the curb and have a dialogue and say, "Well, I wonder if we should rescue them or not." So those who are saying, "No, don't you understand," are looking and saying, "The danger is so great, the wall has been breached, and if we don't draw the sword now, we're going to die." And I think, again, I go back to, "Is the fruit of the Spirit present in this?," because yes, we do want to rescue the perishing, but one last comment, and Tim, this is just for your sake. You brought up Romans 9. I had a production company back in the 1980's, and I decided, "What am I going to name it?," and that's what I picked, Romans 9 Productions was my production company, but it had more to do with the middle of the chapter than the first of the chapter that you wrote-

Tim Muehlhoff: But you know what's funny though, Bob? And you and I kid about this all the time, but the first part of Romans 9 is stunning.

Bob Lepine: Yeah. It is.

Tim Muehlhoff: The depth he is willing to go, which is his eternal security, after having just written Romans chapter eight. I'll give it all up for my brethren. I'm sitting there going, "I don't think that's me." Like, "I don't think that's ..."

Bob Lepine: Right.

Tim Muehlhoff: But there's something beautiful about ... And, again, people will know psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, if you love them or not.

Rick Langer: Yes, they will.

Tim Muehlhoff: And there's a depth of Paul's love that is really beautiful. Hey, I honestly wrote down, I am not kidding, I wrote down, "What was He doing the day before He overturned that table?" Thank you for ... I had never thought of it that way, but that is a really powerful way to leave this. Bob, we greatly respect your input.

Thank you for what you're doing and being a great model to us of how to take seemingly simple topics and make them more complex and think about it, and yet, having the courage to say what you think is true. So thank you so much.

Bob Lepine: I appreciate you guys. I appreciate the work, and I'm very grateful that you are influencing the minds of students who are being battered to and fro in the culture today, so keep pressing biblical truth into their hearts.

Tim Muehlhoff: Thanks, Bob.

Rick Langer: Thanks so much, Bob. It was great to have you. And thank you to our listeners as well. We appreciate you and don't want to take you for granted. We'd love to have you subscribe to become a regular listener on Apple Podcasts, or Google Play, Spotify, wherever it is that you get your podcasts.

And we also encourage you to check out the winsomeconviction.com website, both for resources, but it's also a great way to respond to us. If you have questions, if you'd like to have some things that we respond to, just go to the winsomeconviction.com website, and you'll have a place here that you can click and email us, or we'd also love to have you sign up for our quarterly mailing list.

Tim Muehlhoff: We also have our ... I chose Arminianism t-shirts.

Rick Langer: Which is not true, and we don't. All right. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Winsome Conviction Podcast.